New statements from the former heads of the Defense Intelligence Agency's paranormal research group

Following the publication of their new book "Initial Revelations", Dr. James Lacatski and Dr. Colm Kelleher answered questions from Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp.


Published 2023-10-17 at 10:18

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On Tuesday 17 October 2023, an interview with the heads of the first known military paranormal research group, Dr. James Lacatski and Dr. Colm Kelleher, was broadcast on director Jeremy Corbell's personal channel. They both made a number of statements that are in line with those of whistleblower David Grusch, who this summer testified under oath before the House of Representatives Oversight Committee about illegal reverse engineering programmes, and who we have just learned, according to Florida State Representative Luna, has just been granted access to a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF) to reveal the names of those responsible.

The interview was conducted by Mr. Corbell and Mr. Knapp, the latter a decorated journalist with 8 News Now, KLAS TV in Las Vegas, a CBS affiliate. Mr. Knapp has had a long career as an investigative journalist and rose to national prominence by interviewing the controversial Bob Lazar, who claimed to have worked on non-human craft at Area 51. George Knapp's career and his archive of documents on the subject of UFOs have just been made the subject of a multi-part documentary, the first of which was published 24 hours ago by NewsNation (Nexstar Media Group).

The interview takes place alongside the launch of the book co-authored by James Lacatski and Colm Kelleher, "Inside the U.S. government covert UFO program, Initial Revelations".

Review of Special Access Program request, USG

The Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Application Program

James Lacatski, who directed the annual missile threat assessment for the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, began by defining the program he directed. Called AAWSAP (Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Application Program), it was created, according to Lacatski, between himself and the late Senator and Democratic Party leader Harry Reid, with a budget of 22 million dollars. Lacatski insists that from the outset, AAWSAP's aim was to study the relationship between the paranormal and UFOs:

“It had the capability of going five years. We completed our objectives in two years. You might say it was a test of various components of a UFO/UAP [Unidentified Aerial Phenomena] paranormal research program right from the beginning. It included all aspects of both UFOs and the paranormal.”

With hindsight, one of the things he finds most fascinating is that certain cases, several decades apart, seem to repeat themselves identically. He openly wonders whether these are machines capable of travelling through time, a thesis defended by anthropologist Michael Masters and recently the subject of journalist Jean-Claude Bourret's latest book "UFOs travel through time". However, he points out several times in the interview that the objects appear to have a wide range of shapes within specific categories.

In response to a question from George Knapp about the mention in the book of a device of supposedly unknown origin in the possession of the United States, the interior of which was accessible, Dr. James Lacatski replied that:

“What's in the book is an exact statement of the event that occurred in a congressional facility.”

According to the book, this object had an aerodynamic shape, but apparently no exhaust, air intake, wings, control surface, engine, tank or fuel. Lacatski then confirms that he was authorized to say this, but it is possible that he is referring to the Pentagon's review process. The Pentagon ensures that no information published can harm the security of the United States, without certifying its authenticity.

Lacatski, pressed by Corbell to say more about the nature of the device, refused to give any further details, saying it might give clues to others working on the subject. 

However, he in turn raised questions he wished he was asked but never was: why was AAWSAP launched, or stopped? Did it even stop?

Picture by 12019 for Pixabay

Bolts and Ghosts

Among other questions that Lacatski finds worthwhile: why did he and his team meet Brazilian General Paulo Roberto Yog de Miranda Uchôa on several occasions, in particular to discuss Operation Prato, which the latter had directed?

Taking place in 1977 around the Colares area in Brazil, this military operation was aimed at investigating cases of attacks on local populations by alleged UFOs. Later in the interview, James Lacatski refers to recent events reported in South America to show that this phenomenon is continuing. Readers interested in this subject can refer to the information provided by Rony Vernet.

However, Dr. Lacatski refused to provide any further information on any of these issues.

Dr. Colm Kelleher, former Director of Scientific Research at Robert Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), then spoke, explaining AAWSAP's two missions: 

  1. to measure the performance of alleged UFOs
  2. to measure the biological effects of alleged UFOs on humans

He went on to explain that while "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon", the previous book by Colm Kelleher, James Lacatski and George Knapp, focused on the second aspect, "Initial Revelations" is devoted to the technical performance of these supposedly exotic devices.

Surprisingly, James Lacatski explained that the very serious DIA was perfectly aware of the scope of AAWSAP's research into both the paranormal and so-called exotic technologies, and concluded his statement by saying that: “we had no choice but to pursue both aspects”.

Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs Hearing, USG

David Grusch and the Threat

Even more surprisingly, when asked about whistleblower David Grusch's testimony about allegedly alien devices recovered by the United States government, he stated that : “I never saw any of what I would consider illegal activities. I saw security procedures that are paramount, but not illegal activities.”

James Lacatski does not deny that such recovery programmes exist, but simply that they are kept as secret as possible. That said, he considers David Grusch "credible", and that his statements are "reasonable", but he wouldn't answer any questions about potentially biological remains that may have been recovered from craft of supposedly non-human origin.

Later in the interview, he stated, regarding some witnesses interviewed by David Grusch: 

“You can't call them liars. They totally believe it now. How many of those people that David Grush came across fit in that category? I could name a list of them right now, but I won't, I mean obviously, I respect their opinions, but I know what they're saying is false”.  

He stated that he has repeatedly seen “forged documents” that are now public, created by counter-intelligence officers to protect their programs.

He added, quite cryptically, that there is a good reason why he is not giving more answers, and that in his opinion there is nothing "dark" about this reason, and that whatever the source of the UFO phenomenon:  “If full human capabilities were known to us right now, it is not something that we need to fear.”

Asked by Jeremy Corbell about the direct threat posed by these alleged alien devices, Colm Kelleher replied: 

“The AAWSAP program generated gobs of data on UFO capability. We generated almost nothing on UFO intent, and unless you have both [...] you cannot make the case that these objects are a threat to National Security. What you can say is that they are a threat to human health”.

After Colm Kelleher's discussion of RB-47 and Laken Heath, two cases where UAP were recorded by multiple platforms and observed by multiple witnesses, James Lacatski explained that the presence of these objects is a danger to flight safety simply by their physical presence in the air.

Picture by Ivory MacIntyre for Pixabay

The Shadows

As to why these programs are so closely guarded, he explained that it would be extremely difficult to force a private company to disclose its alleged research into UAPs, given that it has invested its own funds to carry out its research, even if the alleged UAP elements were given to it by the U.S. government. 

He then added that the way to open up as much information as possible while protecting U.S. national security is through books like his, where analyses of classified data can be communicated publicly after approval by the authorities.  

On the very nature of the UFO phenomenon, Colm Kelleher explained:

“You've got to balance the idea that a technology can manipulate human perception, and even from a long-term perspective manipulate human cultural phenomena as well, as operate as a machine.”

Later in the interview, when asked again about this cultural influence, James Lacatski replied that some people benefit from knowledge gained from interactions with "real Men In Black".

Now part of popular culture, men in black fall into two categories: the first are representatives of government authorities, generally dressed in black suits. The second are said to be interfaces between the UFO phenomenon and humanity, as described by the late Joël Mesnard in Men In Black. It would seem that James Lacatski is talking about the latter here, because he wonders whether their function would be to: “draw attention away from the UFO phenomenon or using reverse psychology, draw attention to it?”.

James Lacatski did not give any further details about the nature of the information that some of them would have gained, but he did say that, creating a third category, some elements from other agencies would masquerade as Men In Black to intimidate witnesses. This considerably frightened some of them, one of whom was prepared to shoot them.  

Jeremy Corbell concluded the interview by noting that the possibility of the US possessing spacecraft that can be accessed aligns with Dr. Eric Davis' comment in the New York Times, where he stated that he had briefed the US Department of Defense on “off-world vehicles not made on this Earth.”

Main picture: for Pixabay

Baptiste Friscourt

Born in 1986, this certified visual arts teacher started looking for reliable information on UAP in 2017 at the request of his students. Since then, he's been covering UAP research in France for The Debrief while vulgarizing international content on a demonetized platform of his own which was named Explorer Lab. After serving as Editor-in-Chief of UAP Check News between February 2023 and January 2024, he is currently editor-in-chief of Sentinel News.